Re:Help-my kudas are still skinny! - 2005/10/31 00:25Also what kind/brand of mysis are you feeding them? It makes a differnce. I used Sally jo's bay brand, and they were terrible. Im now using hikari, and they are much better. My horses wouldnt eat the bay brand, but they are readily gulping down the hikari. If your using Hikari or somthing else comperable I would suggest bumping up to gamma or the ultimate Piscene Energetics which is supposedly the best of the best.
| | The administrator has disabled public write access.
luv2diy
User Guppie
Posts: 6
Karma: 0
Re:Help-my kudas are still skinny! - 2005/10/31 10:40i use hikiari also in the cubes and flat pack. i haven't found a local place that carries PE yet. I think I'll feed the tank and when they are all full I put some live red shrimp in there and see if there's any interest from them.
| | The administrator has disabled public write access.
I doubt that you're female is eating secretively if she looks so darn skinny. We never want to see a sunken, pinched-in abdomen or concave belly plates on a seahorse. If she were eating on the sly she should look well-fed rather than emaciated.
Your female kuda may just need a little longer to adjust to her new surroundings and resume her normal feeding habits, or may simply be exhibiting a strong size preference for her food. Some seahorses are very particular in that regard and tend to reject food items that are significantly larger or smaller than their preferred range of prey. For example, I've seen some seahorses that rejected the smaller Hikari Mysis with great disdain, yet which greedily gulped down the jumbo Piscine Energetics Mysis relicta. On the other hand, I've had small seahorses turn up their snouts at the jumbo PE frozen Mysis because it's too large for their liking, and attack the small Hikari frozen Mysis with great gusto.
To circumvent this potential problem in your case, let's try tempting your female kuda with smaller morsels of Mysis. At this point, I suggest carefully target feeding her with frozen Hikari Mysis that have been carefully thawed and then cut in two halves -- a head section and a tail section. Leave her shrimp unenriched for now, just thaw it properly and carefully cut it in two. Feed the more aggressive feeders their fill first and then carefully target feed her the half-sized Mysis (a glass turkey baster works great for this -- the seahorses can watch the Mysis as it moves down the barrel and baster allows you to impart lifelike movement to the morsels of Mysis). Be patient but persistent and take care not to alarm the female while you target feed. Use the baster to target-feed her half-sized Mysis two or three times a day for the next few days, luv2diy, and if she is merely being finicky regarding the size of her prey because the Mysis you are offering her now is too large, hopefully she will soon begin to take the bite-sized shrimp halves.
If you're using the Hikari Mysis, you might also want to try adding a bit of garlic or Entice to it to help stimulate her feeding response. Piscine Energetics Mysis relicta is especially rich in fatty acids which act as natural appetite stimulants, triggering a positive feeding response in finicky eaters, but the Hikari Mysis sometimes needs a little enhancing with odor attractants like garlic or Entice to produce the same affect.
If your kuda won't go for the Hikari Mysis even if you cut it in half and add appetite stimulants to it, then I would suggest trying PE Mysis relicta instead. Many times seahorses that won't touch the Hikari go nuts for the higher-quality Piscine Energetics frozen Mysis. And if your female happens to prefer larger prey items, then the jumbo PE Mysis might be just what she needs.
Best of luck with all your galloping gourmets, luv2diy!
Respectfully, Pete Giwojna
| | The administrator has disabled public write access.
luv2diy
User Guppie
Posts: 6
Karma: 0
Re:Help-my kudas are still skinny! - 2005/11/04 11:38Ok- tried all of your suggestions Pete and the female still hasn't eatten. The male isn't too excited either. I had garlic so I added that. Tried to target feed both and that didn't go over well. I'll call my LFS and see if anyone has entice and PE mysis. I'm starting to worry because I lost 2 from a LFS because they wouldn't eat (they probably were wc and the store didn't know) but I've never heard of anyone having problems with OR.
One more thing I noticed... every once and a while one will shutter. The only way to describe it is if they got a chill. They aren't scratching on anything and I don't see spots. They don't do it at the same time either and they aren't close to each other so I know it's not a mating thing. They are still very dark brown (they are supposed to be yellow) and my established girls are yellow. I would think that having them for 2 wks now that they would have settled in!
| | The administrator has disabled public write access.
ecogirl22
User Coastal Cruiser
Posts: 22
Karma: 0
You're not the only one- tube feeding - 2005/11/05 19:18Hi, I'm having the EXACT same problems with my OR kuda's. When I first got them they were suffering from ammonia poisoning form the 55 hours trip in the bag. Well, i treated them with methyl blue...but they never recovered. They show the same "shudders" you described. The male hasn't eaten in a week (i've had them for 10 days). The female only ate a few live mysids, but nothing dead. I have tried EVERYTHING just as you have.
I tried hikari-target feeding, enriching with entice, live mysids, live volcanoes live enriched brine shrimp, I even got PE mysis and enriched them with entice and NOTHING. I've tried feeding with a clear tube in a dish, with a long tweezers, with my fingers, dropping them slowly in front of them...I even took a live mysid and crushed him a little so her couldn't get away from the horse to fast! I'm so desperate, I even tied a PE mysis on a thread and "fished" it in front of the seahorses and nothing. The male's stomach is completely pinched in--he is emaciated (he came pretty skinny, but has gotten much worse, obviously from lack of eating!). the female's stomach is pretty pinched too.
So i don't know what else to tell you other than don't worry if you can't find PE as its not doing the trick for me.
I have even tried tube feeding as a last ditch effort, but I wasn't able to find a syringe small enough to fit into their tiny mouths...so I have to wait till I can get to the Vets on monday. I'm not sure they will make it until then. I hate watching them waste away like this. I certainly expected my seahorses would arrive in better condition seeing that OR has such a fantastic reputation...but alas.....
here's the directions on tube feeding of sygnthiad.org by lesslie ledo (SP?)
WHAT YOU NEED:
Someone with access to medical supplies. A local sympathetic veterinarian is a good option. A high quality food. Frozen Mysis or a high quality flake can be used. My preference is PE mysis. It has an outstanding nutritional profile. It is 69.9% protein and rich in HUFAs. For more information on this particular brand see www.mysis.com. A very narrow catheter. I use a plastic intravenous catheter with the introducer needle removed from the center and properly disposed of in a sharps container, perhaps prior to leaving the vets office with your supplies. I would suggest an 18 to 25g depending on the diameter of your horses snout. I used a 20g on my 6 to 7" erectus. The smaller the horse or the narrower the snout the smaller the cathethter you will need. The cathether size is inversely proportional to the # gauge it is assigned. So an 18g has a wider lumen than a 24g. A 1cc syringe. A bowl. It should be wide enough and deep enough to allow for your horse to remain submerged while your assistant holds him and you administer the feeding. An assistant. Preferably someone who is not to squeamish. Tank water. A spoon. A small bowl. Distilled water. An area to work that is well lit.
WHAT TO PREPARE:
Gather all your supplies. Review the GI tract of the seahorse in Seahorse Anatomy 101 in the syngnathid.org Library. Pay particular attention to the esophagus, stomach and intestines. Clear and clean a well lit work space. Wash and rinse your hands well. Prepare the food by placing a small amount of previously defrosted and enriched mysis in the small bowl. With the convex side of your spoon, mash the mysis into a smooth paste. Add a few drops of distilled water and mix thoroughly. You will need to experiment and play here a bit in order to get the paste to a consistency that will easily, smoothly, and consistently flow through the tip of the catheter when gentle pressure is applied to the plunger of the syringe. The smaller the diameter of catheter (larger gauge #) you are using the more dilute and thinner the gruel will need to be. Once you have a consistency you think is appropriate, draw some of the gruel into the syringe and attach the catheter to the syringe. The tip of the syringe is usually threaded and the catheter will screw on to it. Gently apply pressure to the plunger of the syringe to be sure the gruel flows through the tip of the catheter easily, smoothly and consistently. Adjust the consistency of the gruel as necessary by adding more distilled water or more mysis paste until it flows smoothly through the catheter with VERY gentle pressure on the plunger. No force should be exerted at all. Flush the syringe and catheter several times by drawing a small amount of distilled water into the syringe and pushing it back out. Draw into the syringe a little more gruel than you intend to feed. I fed 0.2ccs to 0.25ccs to a 6" to 7" erectus. You are going to have to estimate the appropriate amount based on the size of your horse. This is where the Seahorse Anatomy page will come in handy. Since the seahorse's digestive tract is basically a straight tube from snout to anus you can use their length as a general guideline to estimate the portion size. Start with the plunger of the syringe fully depressed, pull up on the plunger and draw about 0.3 to 0.4 ccs of the mysis mixture into the syringe. Any air in the syringe will need to be removed. Invert the syringe holding it vertically tip up, plunger down. Gently tap on the syringe several times. The air will displace the gruel appearing as a bubble at the tip of the syringe. Gently depress the plunger with the syringe remaining in the inverted position, so you will be pushing up on the plunger. Continue to depress the plunger until all the air has been expressed from the syringe and a small amount of gruel appears at the syringe tip.
Attach the catheter to the syringe and prime it by depressing the plunger until a few drops of gruel emerge from the catheter tip. OK now you are ready to actually feed the little bugger... whoops... sorry... your sweet little hunger striking horse.
HOW TO DO IT
Pound up your assistant. Take a few deep breaths and relax. Fill the large bowl with your horse's tank water. Remove your horse from the tank by gently scooting him into a small container and gently release him into the bowl of tank water. Have your assistant firmly but gently hold the horse, keeping him submerged at all times. His head and neck should be between their thumb and forefinger, snout pointing up, with his body lying across their palm. Encourage him to curl his tail around their pinky. This will help to keep the horse calm. If you have never held a seahorse in your hand you may be surprised at how strong they are. He may struggle or even snick. Boy oh boy was I surprised at how powerful their snick is. Take the previously filled and primed syringe into your dominant hand. Loosely hold the horse's snout between the thumb and forefinger of your other hand. Closely observe the snout tip. It will open and close in synchrony with his respirations. As the snout opens insert the tip of the catheter into the snout about ½ way between the snout tip and trigger. Slowly and gently depress the plunger. Try to time injecting tiny bits of the gruel just prior to the closing of the snout. If he is ingesting the gruel you will actually see him swallow and pass some of the food through his gills. He may snick, it will feel strange but don't be alarmed. The first time my boy did it I thought for sure the catheter would break off in his snout. It never did. He did however dent it a bit. That snick is powerful! If the gruel is coming back out of his snout either you are injecting the gruel to quickly, the catheter tip is not far enough into his snout or you are close to the end of the feeding and his GI tract is full. First check to see if you are close to the end of the estimated amount of the feeding. If so he is probably full and you are done. If not try injecting the gruel a little slower taking care to try and synchronize advancing the plunger just prior to the closing of the snout. If the gruel continues to come back out try advancing the catheter tip just a tad further. Finish the feeding. You may need to give him and yourself a little break if either of the above situations occur and too much of the feeding is lost. Refill the syringe and give him the rest of the estimated amount. Wooooooo Hoooooooo!!! That's it! You did it! Tell him what a good boy he was, return him to the tank, give yourself a big pat on the back, thank your assistant and take the rest of the evening off in front of your tank with a cup of tea... well... OK, if you insist a cold beer, a glass of wine, or a good stiff drink of your choice. It wasn't that bad now was it? I bet it was easier than you had anticipated. I thought it was.
SOME TIPS
Practice pushing the gruel through the catheter. If it is to thick it will stick and you will need to push harder. You will need to thin it with some distilled water so that it flows out smoothly. Ask your veterinarian for several size catheters. Use the one with the widest diameter (lowest # gauge) that will easily insert into the horse's snout. Have the vet remove the introducer needle in his office, so you do not have to worry about needle disposal. It may be necessary to do this several days in a row until the feeding response is initiated or returns. I would suggest offering a variety of foods prior to each once daily tube feeding. If you have been tube feeding for several days and he shows no interest in eating you may need to gradually decrease the amounts of the feeding so he is actually hungry or possibly fast him for a day or two. It is my feeling that if at all possible allowing him to remain in his own tank with other horses and offering a variety of foods live as well as frozen may be beneficial in helping to encourage him to eat. I hope you never need to use the information I presented here, but if you should I would like to wish you good luck and hope this article has proved useful.
| | The administrator has disabled public write access.
luv2diy
User Guppie
Posts: 6
Karma: 0
Re:You're not the only one- tube feeding - 2005/11/06 10:26Well, I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one. I emailed OR about a wk ago with no response. Well this morning when I looked at them they looked less "pinched" in the tummy so they must have found something to eat somewhere over the night. I just started using the feeding station but I don't think they've figured that out yet. They are still skinny though... I just don't want to loose my male b/c his pouch looks like he might be pregnant!
| | The administrator has disabled public write access.
