Re:Please Help! Desperate :( - 2008/08/15 14:57OH NO! i misunderstood the message in parenthesis above.. it said "(as well as metronidazole)" and i thought that was another substitute to the doxy. so i bought that one yesterday since it was in powder form and easier to disolve than the neomycin in the liquid for they have to eat. i started one dose yesterday. soaking live brine shrimp in the mix for 10 minutes (suprisingly they did fine and stayed alive.) and then 1/2 dosed the hospital tank set up exactly as you described. she seems to be looking fine her color is good and she is active and eating well.. i ordered the kanamycin but wanted to start on atleast one med right away. now im worried it was the wrong thing to do!. should forget the metronizole and stop using it and go get the liquid neo? im so upset and frutrated about this whoel thing. its really stressful and im trying to be patient cuz i know its worse for her. poor thing! i just wanna help her already without more stress on her. im truely greatful for all your replies. i am learning.
monique
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No problem. Metronidazole is an antibiotic with potent antiprotozoal properties, which makes it an effective antiparasitic. Its effect of primarily useful against anaerobic bacteria, and is therefore not especially helpful in treating marine ulcer disease, but it will certainly do your seahorse no harm and is better than nothing while you are waiting for the kanamycin. If any sort of protozoan parasites or internal parasites are involved in your female seahorse's problems, it could actually do her some good. Here is some additional information about this medication:
Metronidazole (Hexamit/Flagyl)
This medication was originally developed to combat the parasites that cause amoebiasis and giardiasis in man and wreak havoc on the human GI tract (Kaptur, 2004), and it remains the treatment of choice for eradicating internal parasites (intestinal flagellates, digenetic trematodes, etc.) in seahorses. It is extremely effective in treating wasting disease (weight loss despite eating well) and loss of appetite when they are due to such intestinal parasites (Kaptur, 2004).
Metronidazole is an antibiotic with antiprotozoal properties that is most effective when ingested (Kaptur, 2004), and is best administered orally via gut-loaded shrimp. If administered in a hospital tank, it will be absorbed from the water through the gills, but is most effective at elevated temperature (80-90 degrees F), which means this method of treatment is generally not practical for seahorses.
Metronidazole is only active against anaerobic bacteria, so it is one drug that can be used safely in your main tank without impairing the biofiltration (Kaptur, 2004). This is a very safe with medication with little to no danger of overdosing.
Metronidazole can be combined safely with aminoglycoside antibiotics such as Kanamycin and neomycin to create a potent synergistic treatment that's effective against both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria.
In short, Monique, there is no need to discontinue the metronidazole and you can rest assured that it will do your seahorse no harm at all. If you have ordered the kanamycin and you are already using the metronidazole, then there is really no need to include the liquid neomycin in your treatment regimen. One aminoglycoside antibiotic should be adequate, and I prefer the kanamycin in suspected Vibrio infections since it is one antibiotic that is especially effective in saltwater and is absorbed readily through the skin and gills, making it very useful for prolonged immersion in a hospital tank.
Go ahead and complete the regimen of metronidazole you have begun, and add the kanamycin to the daily treatment regimen as soon as it arrives. Once you begin using an antibiotic, it's important to complete the full treatment program in order to help prevent resistant strains of bacteria from developing.
It's encouraging that your female remains active and a good color with a healthy appetite. Best of luck resolving this infection, Monique.
Respectfully, Pete Giwojna
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g000dxgirl
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Re:Please Help! Desperate :( - 2008/08/18 18:45i started teh treatment friday with the kanaplex and neoplex. she is still doing average. not looking worse or better. however i think she is very lonely in that bucket se looks depressed. im sure without her mate as well. i can definatly see she is unhappy. also the medication cals for a treatment of every other day for only 4 days.. do i continue daily for 10 days as you prescribed? i am so thankful for your time! i will let you know how it turns out. thank you for your information!!!
monique
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Okay, that's very good that you're able to obtain both the KanaPlex and the Neoplex after all! As you know, they are both aminoglycoside antibiotics and can be combined together to increase their effectiveness. The kanamycin (e.g., KanaPlex from SeaChem) is absorbed very well through the skin and gills of the fish even in saltwater, and therefore works very well against internal bacterial infections. Of these two antibiotics, it is the one I prefer for treating marine ulcer disease, because once the open wounds or lesions form, the bacteria can also enter the bloodstream of the fish and these types of infections can become systemic.
On the other hand, the neomycin (e.g., Neoplex by SeaChem) is not absorbed readily, but is very effective in treating external infections as a prolonged immersion bath and is especially helpful in treating vibriosis in the early stages before the open ulcers develop.
Together, the neomycin + kanamycin forms a potent synergistic combination of antibiotics that can attack the infection from both the outside and the inside simultaneously, and that increases the chances of fighting off this type of bacterial infection and preventing it from going systemic and resulting in septacemia.
However, the KanaPlex and Neoplex from SeaChem are somewhat different than the pure kanamycin sulfate and neomycin sulfate I recommended from National Aquarium Pharmaceuticals -- a concentration of the active ingredient in the medication is not the same -- and that's why the instructions for administering them differ. As I understand it, the directions for the KanaPlex and Neoplex direct you to add 1 dose of the medication every other day for a total of up to three treatments. In other words, the SeaChem treatment regimen should go as follows:
Day 1: first dose of KanaPlex and/or Neoplex Day 2: add no medication Day 3: second dose of KanaPlex and/or Neoplex Day 4: add no medication Day 5: add third and final dose of KanaPlex and/or Neoplex Day 6: add no medication but allow the last dose of medication to do its work before you remove the fish or the medication. Day 7: 48 hours after adding the last dose of KanaPlex/Neoplex add fresh activated carbon to remove the medication from the aquarium.
That is a conservative treatment regimen that is intended for treating the main tank without destroying the beneficial nitrifying bacteria in your biofilter. That's why they recommend using no more than two or three doses of the medication spaced two days apart, and that's why they don't specify performing any water changes (they assume you are using the medications in an aquarium with an established biofilter). Any more of the medication than that will have a negative impact on the nitrifying bacteria that perform the biological filtration for the aquarium and keep the ammonia and nitrite at zero.
That's a sensible approach when you are using the medication to treat your main tank, but it's an unnecessary precaution when you are treating the affected fish in a hospital tank or hospital bucket. Since you are treating your seahorse in a hospital tank/bucket, with no biological filtration to maintain good water quality, I would change the treatment regimen slightly to allow for partial water changes and to extend the treatment period for a full 10+ days, as explained below. (When using antibiotics, it's very important to continue treatment for at least seven days, and 10 days is much preferable, in order to help prevent resistant strains of bacteria from developing.) Here is the adjusted treatment regimen I would recommend in your case, Monique:
Day 1: add first dose of KanaPlex and/or Neoplex to the hospital tank (or bucket). Day 2: add no medication to the hospital tank. Day 3: 48 hours after adding the first dose of medication, perform a 25%-50% water change and then add the second dose of KanaPlex and/or Neoplex to the hospital tank after the water has been changed. Day 4: add no medication to the hospital tank. Day 5: 48 hours after adding a second dose of medication, perform a 25%-50% water change and then add the third and final dose of KanaPlex and/or Neoplex to the hospital tank after the water has been changed. Day 6: add no medication but allow the last dose of medication to do its work before you remove the fish or the medication. Day 7: 48 hours after adding the last dose of KanaPlex/Neoplex to the hospital tank, return the fish to the main tank. Then turn of the UV and protein skimmer, remove any chemical filtration media from the aquarium, and add a first dose of KanaPlex and/or Neoplex to the main tank. Day 8: add no medication to the main tank. Day 9: add a second and final dose of the KanaPlex and/or Neoplex to the main tank. Day 10: add no more medication to the main tank. Day 11: 48 hours after adding the final dose of medication to the main tank, add fresh activated carbon to the aquarium filter to pull out any remaining medication. Date 12: restart the protein skimmer, turn on the UV sterilizer, and replace the chemical filtration media in the main tank.
This modified treatment regimen accomplishes two things -- it allows the seahorses to be treated with the antibiotics for a full 10+ days, and also treats the main tank with two doses of the medication, which will help to eradicate the harmful bacteria but should not destroy the biofilter in the seahorse aquarium, at least according to the instructions from SeaChem.
Best of luck treating your seahorse, Monique. Here's hoping she's feeling much better soon. Please keep me advised as to her progress.
Respectfully, Pete Giwojna
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Today is the 10th day of the hospital tank. My girl is still the SAME. She still has the 2 huge sores on her tail? Am I doing something wrong? I am affraid to put her back in the main tank all though she is eating like a little piglet still.. she has also bee hitching upside down for the past 4 days.. only on occasion being able to hitch right side up.. I am assuming it is because of the sores in the location that got so bad were causing her to not be able to curl the tail without pain? I feel so bad for her but i tell you this little girl is one tough cookie! Here is what I did.. day1- in the 4 gallon hospital tank i dosed 1 measured scoop of kanaplex and 1 measured scoop of neoplex (also lettign her food live brine soak in the prior to putting it in the water) FYI-the live brine shrimp lived fine in the medication for 10 minutes day2-8 same process. with a partial water change each day. day9 no medication day10 water change and medications
Now I am affraid I did not do somethign right?? Her tail looks exactly the same and she also is swimming with hinderance.. like her tail is too hard to lower than her body.. I feel like she is suffering but still eating WELL! what do I do? should I put her back in the main tank and do the 2 doses you suggested there? will that harm my corals or my other fish?
Also.. here is a horrific story for you.. and for anyone with these urchins. I had a long spiney urchin and a crab that just came in on one of my live rocks that had red eyes and 2 white racing stripes down the center of his back.. kinda creepy looking actualy.. but I was told the urchin was harmless. however. I bought another seahorse for a companion for my girl whne she healed (as i think they dont like to be alone) and when I woke up in the morning I went to the tank and noticed the crab had snatched the tail of the new seahorse where she was hitched on a rock and was pulling it in the hole! and the long spine urchin scurried over to her and started eating her back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I freaked out! that poor thing was looking at me like.. HELP ME>..!! so I pulle dthe spiney off her and tried getting her tail out of the rock without hurting her and couldnt! the crab had ahold of her tight! so as i went to get a knife to wedge in there.. the stupid spiney tried getting her again! I finally got her free.. and unfortunatly she passed over night I was devistated.. I cried all morning. Needless to say i got rid of the urchin which i assumed was eating on my coral cuz there was nothing else to pick on them.. AND could not get the crab out so I just took the whole rock in too.... I do not like aggressive animals and they were as I was told they werent. so people beware.
Now back to the hospital.. any advice further on what to do next?? i am stumped. thanks for all your time..
Monique
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No, I don't think you're doing anything wrong -- it's just that the bacteria that are most commonly associated with marine ulcer disease (Vibrio and Pseudomonas species) are stubborn infections that are difficult to knock out. As I mentioned earlier, the instructions for the KanaPlex and Neoplex are rather conservative and are intended for use in the main tank without harming the beneficial bacteria in the filter bed. A more aggressive treatment regimen would be more effective, but without knowing the concentration of the medication in the KanaPlex and the Neoplex, it's difficult to determine how much you could safely increase the dosage.
Your concerns about returning your female to the main tank are correct, Monique -- I would not risk returning her and exposing the rest of the fish in the tank to this pathogen until the sores on her tail have healed completely.
I would suggest continuing daily treatments of the KanaPlex and adding some topical treatments to the treatment regimen to help promote healing of the open sores on her tail. Make a partial water change every 24 hours and then administer a new dose of the KanaPlex each day.
Meanwhile, for the topical treatments, I would suggest a very brief daily dip in a 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide followed by periodic applications of NEXABAND S/C Topical Tissue Adhesive over each of the open sores to seal the wounds and help them heal. This is the "surgical glue" they are now using in hospitals to close incisions and wounds in people and animals following surgery rather than sutures or stitches, and which most folks simply refer to as "skin glue."
Here are the instructions for applying the topical tissue adhesive to the wound:
Treating Bacterial Lesions with NEXABAND S/C Topical Tissue Adhesive
Fill a small bowl or other container with saltwater from the seahorse's aquarium and keep the seahorse's head submerged, if possible, while you apply the tissue adhesive to the wounds. Hold the rest of its body out of the water and gently pat dry the sores or lesions using sterile gauze. Then hold the disposable pipette tip a small distance above the store and apply a small amount of the tissue adhesive over each of the open wounds or lesions and allow it to dry. The tissue adhesive or skin glue dries very quickly and it only takes about 10 seconds for it to set up completely. After the tissue adhesive has been applied to all of the wounds and set up for at least 10 seconds, return the seahorse to the treatment tank for antibiotic therapy.
Apply the tissue adhesive or surgical glue to the open sores once or twice a day every third day until the wounds heal. Do not attempt to peel away or remove any of the remaining adhesive when you reapply the surgical glue after three days, since it will slough naturally as the wound heals.
CAUTION: take care not to get any of the tissue adhesive on your hands or fingers during this procedure! This is a very strong adhesive and it's easy to glue your fingers together if you're not careful (they don't call it "skin glue" for nothing). You don't want to cement your fingers together or glue yourself to your seahorse, so be sure to apply the tissue adhesive sparingly using the special applicator it comes with, and make sure to keep your fingers out of harms way when you do so.
You can obtain the NEXABAND S/C Topical Tissue Adhesive online without a prescription from a number of sources, including the following URL:
The daily dips in 3% hydrogen peroxide and the topical applications of the surgical glue will help the open sores or wounds to heal, and the kanamycin will be absorbed into the bloodstream of the seahorse through its skin and gills, providing ongoing antibiotic therapy to help get the infection under control.
If you have any difficulty obtaining the NEXABAND S/C Topical Tissue Adhesive, then topical treatments with Biobandage would be another option. Biobandage is a combination of neomycin, a vitamin complex, and unique polymers that form a sort of "biological bandage" that binds the medications to the wound, thus helping to prevent infection and promote rapid healing. It can be obtained online from the following vendor. But the NEXABAND S/C Topical Tissue Adhesive is a more effective topical treatment by far:
Here are the instructions for performing the very brief hydrogen peroxide dips, Monique:
Hydrogen Peroxide (H202) Dips
A very quick dip 10-second dip in a 3% hydrogen peroxide solution is effective in cleansing fish of Uronema and other protozoan parasites and will also help to disinfect bacterial lesions and promote healing of open wounds and sores. The hydrogen peroxide dipping solution is prepared by taking one gallon of dechlorinated freshwater and then removing 10-oz of the water and replacing it with 10-oz of 35% hydrogen peroxide instead. (Note: 35% is the standard concentration of hydrogen peroxide that you obtain at the drugstore or probably have in your medicine chest at home.) This formula will produce a 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide for the brief dip (Kollman, 2003).
You can also scale this formula down by starting with 1/2 gallon of dechlorinated freshwater for the dip, and then removing 5 ounces of the water and replacing it with 5 ounces of 35% hydrogen peroxide instead. That will again produce a ~3% solution of hydrogen peroxide and 1/2 gallon is enough for dipping seahorses if you put it in a relatively small container rather than a large plastic bucket.
You can use the same dipping solution for dipping several seahorses in quick succession, but it should then be discarded and you will need to prepare a new solution of 3% hydrogen peroxide each day immediately before you perform the dips, if you will be doing them on a daily basis. This is necessary because the hydrogen peroxide dissipates fairly quickly and must be used immediately after it's prepared for best results.
Dip the affected seahorse in the hydrogen peroxide solution for 10 seconds and then return it to the treatment tank. Cup the seahorse in your hand so that you can remove the seahorse quickly after 10 seconds of exposure in the dipping container. The hydrogen peroxide dip will disinfect bacterial lesions and abrasions and help promote healing. The dips have the added benefit of cleansing the fish from some ectoparasites and may help the seahorse's breathing because the hydrogen peroxide greatly increases the dissolved oxygen levels in the dipping solution. The 3% hydrogen peroxide dips can be repeated once a day or once every three days as needed, depending on the severity of the infection/infestation.
Best of luck resolving this stubborn infection and healing the open wounds on the tail of your seahorse, Monique.
Respectfully, Pete Giwojna
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se looks depressed. im sure without her mate as well.
